Lets talk basic PPP verses Hourly in Heavy duty wrecks and billing Forum

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Lets talk basic PPP verses Hourly

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ibflat2	Lets talk basic PPP verses Hourly		Lead	[-]
Posts: 1411 01/20/12 09:59:52 Featured Member August 2004 WreckMaster #92190 I.T.R.H.F.M. Friend of Museum	Tags : ppp, price per pound, log truck, rolled over truck, semi truck wreck, log truck wreck, towing rates, wreck billing Remove this ad Ok folks, got a question for you to discuss here. I know that Price Per Pound is a very viable billing method and as such it is the method which we use most But we all know that there are jobs which it would seem to bill hourly might make more sense... This is a recent job we did, the log company bought out a skidder and a loader to move and reload the logs so there was not a lot of clean up on our part. Just roll it back over, and tow it to the yard kind of deal... What you think would be proper in billing here, and explain your thoughts here as to why. Now I have to say that if I was to bill this job out with PPP and our rates using 30,000 pounds as a minimum , the price difference would be approximetaly $400.00 for the job... Any thoughts here ? "To be honest, I'm more worried about what the government can do to me than what they can do for me."
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Jim Lunsford		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 56 01/24/12 10:40:33	do more of these than any other.. I would roll my heavyWrecker, MeddutyWrecker , DumpTruck with service trailer and frontend Loader.. Most run about 2 hours port to port on the avg. Figureing PPP (no tax) would be 2580 and hourly would be 2650 @ current rates Hourly on these makes more sense to me although I wish I could use the PPP price method on some lol.. Why ? because these type are all over the board.. on some everything clicks and it takes 45 min and some are 30 miles away and the log loader is 2 hours away and by the time your done your away from the shop half a day.. end result is its still a simple rolled over log truck.. They range from 1500 to 2500 on avg.. have had a couple we did so fast the invoice looked like a liteduty and a few I had to take away time or leave equipment off just to keep invoice within reason PPP would keep the invoices more consistant and reward the fast time but I also think they would confuse the hell out of those good ole boy loggers .. I will add that i've actualy never turned in a PPP invoice but I do compare with my tow program on some..Most when compared run pretty close I've found that keeping the invoice as simple as possiable is best.. I only charge hourly rates for equipment w/operator used and no extras, no mileage,no cleanup, no nuthin but equipment rates (that includes Liteduty as well ).. Lots of people say their invoices are several pages. My question is why? why tell them how you did something or why you did something or why a certain piece of equipment was required and used ?? the more information given the more confuseing Jim
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ibflat2		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1411 01/24/12 11:18:57 Featured Member August 2004 WreckMaster #92190 I.T.R.H.F.M. Friend of Museum	Invoices which are several pages long would tend to be a write up of the recovery operation I would think... That is what I have done and this one was 2 pages long with all the "TRAA Write up stuff" on it... I agree also that these jobs tend to go very quick and are almost bullet proof. But there are times they eat the clock up... "To be honest, I'm more worried about what the government can do to me than what they can do for me."
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ibflat2		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1411 01/25/12 13:37:58 Featured Member August 2004 WreckMaster #92190 I.T.R.H.F.M. Friend of Museum	OK now entering into more discussions on Price Per Pound billing, you have the "bullet proof" contaniner recovery job, which the company requested that it be recovered using air cushions to keep from unloading the vehicle. We were contracted by the other tow company to do the job and we supplied one truck and the air cushions plus operators. Now we fought this one up as it was 57500 pounds in the container and when it went over it caused a nice bulge from the cargo shifting (frozen chicken FEET!!)... This job we flat rated before we went up there and after the fact we realized that we should have done a different rate, but we stood by our quoted rate. Now, due to load shifts, flat tires, broken spring hanger and other issues, the container and chassis was sitting on the passenger side drives, and required it to be transfered to another container (that was on scene just in case and supplied by the trucking company. Now, since we use PPP for our jobs and the other company uses hourly, I know that the bill will be fairly into the range where the customer will scream, especially since they did not want it unloaded. How do you justify the time spent on the job when billing hourly or Price Per Pound, after quoting a price is the question here. On scene for my and my truck, was 7 hours, and the air cushions were there for 6 hours, with 1 hour of trying to stablilze the unit before we departed the scene and left the other company to transfer the load. "To be honest, I'm more worried about what the government can do to me than what they can do for me."
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Jim Lunsford		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 56 01/25/12 15:15:13	{How do you justify the time spent on the job when billing hourly or Price Per Pound, after quoting a price is the question here. } lol there is no justifcation for shootin yourself in the foot by priceing something like this flatrate..you just suck it up and try to remember dont do dat anymore I would assume you quoted your flatrate to the other recovery company and they are doing the invoiceing for this entire recovery.. in other words they billed their equipment out hourly and billed your flatrate as a payout , prob marking it up 25% other company made out big time and yall got screwed.. considering the load still had to be transfered I bet that dam company did scream Jim
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ibflat2		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1411 01/25/12 16:00:38 Featured Member August 2004 WreckMaster #92190 I.T.R.H.F.M. Friend of Museum	Remove this ad what I am saying is that we figured out the air cushion rate using PPP rates (our 2011 rates) of 4.3 cents per pound at 81,000 pounds. Now I know that using Price Per Pound rates will at times bite you in the tail end, but at other times it works out great for you.. I was just putting this out there so that others can talk about billing and the jobs and help figure out if it works or not for them. "To be honest, I'm more worried about what the government can do to me than what they can do for me."
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Jim Lunsford		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 56 01/26/12 10:08:06	{How do you justify the time spent on the job when billing hourly or Price Per Pound, after quoting a price is the question here. } sorry dude..I actualy thought you were asking a question here.. And if my comment came across as being scarcastic it certainly wasn't my intention {I was just putting this out there so that others can talk about billing and the jobs and help figure out if it works or not for them} there again.. my bad as I thought you wanted to decuss this job and not PPP vrs Hourly in general Jim
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ibflat2		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1411 01/26/12 10:49:46 Featured Member August 2004 WreckMaster #92190 I.T.R.H.F.M. Friend of Museum	oh we can discuss the job, or billing... I just want to engage some of the lurkers and "other billing proponants" in a discussion regarding billing issues. Hourly billing be it actual time or 4 hour minimums tend to be the normal method for billing, and in some locations it is mandated by state regulations and rules. Flat rating the jobs tend to be still happening, and I am not talking about Price Per Pound in this example. Some companies tend to look at jobs and say its worth $XXXXXXX... And that is what they write up the bill for. We do use both billing methods and in some cases we make out like bandits, and other times we get the time clock thrown in our face... No one knows when they show up on the job exactly how long it will take to do it. Just like the above air cushion job. We were contacted and asked a price, on the phone and were told what kind of equipment was involved in the wreck, what the cargo weight was, and of course we also knew what kind of recovery vehicles were available by that company who was called for the wreck. That is what I am trying to stir up in the discussions, as it affects the use of Price Per Pound verses Hourly rates. Remember that Price Per Pound was created to simplify the billing of wrecks, regardless of how much time you were there or how much equipment was onscene and used. "To be honest, I'm more worried about what the government can do to me than what they can do for me."
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Jim Lunsford		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 56 01/26/12 12:39:00	I charge by the hour for each piece of equipment w/operator Liteduty and heavyduty..Experance from previous simualer jobs sorta plays a role in what equipment I send to a accident scene.. This is auto inserted on my invoices by my tow program and depending on if its heavyduty ,Liteduty, accident, regualer tow , impound or whatever dictates what it says (this is heavy accident and quiet natualy the others says something different ) "HeavyDuty Recovery or Accident, is Listed Recovery Rate per hour Start to Finish for each piece of equipment required to do the recovery,and includes operator ..Time on scene is adjusted for equipment use in some cases when equipment is Idle / standby but still required (Lengthy Recoverys ) .. Accident recovery is minium 3 hours..Any additional charges such as payouts (rental,ect. ) are explained under discription/notes and listed on invoice as additional charges..Any cleanup,offloading,Towing ,ect.. is covered and included in equipment rates...." Now with that said I will add that even though it says minium 3 hours thats not to say I always charge the minium..more times than not I put the actual time for example 16:34 out, 18:42 in with total being 2.13 hrs (my program uses military time and converts to tenths for more accurat times and easyability to multiply,divide, add and "Read" ) I will also add that if a piece of equipment is taken to the scene and not used at all it dont get stuck on the invoice but thats a rare occurance <grin> ok now where was I ?? oh yea... this type of invoiceing makes a very easy to read and understand invoice because all thats listed is pieces of equipment with their time and rate...nuthin else..not even extra labor because after all each piece of equipment includes operator (laborer) each piece of equipment includes "its" equipment (example) rollback has a sidepuller, straps,blocks,chains,front winch,oil dry, ect.. so nuthin concerning the recovery useing the rollback is extra..stricky an hourly rate for the rollback (in case your wondering its 285 per hr for it and it is on record ) MedDuty wrecker has its own equipment, and anything concerning it is included (dragwinch, front bumper winch,power invertor for on the scene use, air compressor...extras in general and all included with its rate (325) Heavy wrecker is same way..any and everything on it is included in its rate and "if " it would swing, you can bet the spreader bar would be part of its equipment and included in its rate (475) Richard you can edit these rates if you want but they are on state record.. All payouts are marked up 25%..this is an accepted rate by most all insurance companys All in all what I'm ramblin about is I try to have as simple an invoice as possiable..And understandable as possiable by all who read it My tow program will spit out as neat and understandable tow invoice useing PPP as anyone could want.. And is very easy too understand by myself, Richard and most others...however Not all get it .. And that my friends is where lies the problem with PPP.. Not all get it , so I wouldn't consider it as being simple..good system just simply not simple I have on several occasions give a invoice in both formats to an insurance adjustor for his input..every time they picked the hourly invoice over the PPP as being their perfered method of billing..even with total being almost the same (some more some less) Bottom line is..useing hourly method they simply gasp when they see the total..useing PPP they Gasp ,then ask for explainations Jim
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general tow		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 149 01/26/12 17:08:11	Where you been hiding Jim. Long time no see. I have billed both ways, and like you, I have found most adjusters in this area to understand and ask less questions about hourly as oppossed to PPP. Using my tators I tend to like PPP because I can clear a scene much quicker with the Tator than I can with straight heavy"s. What I have done is up the hourly on the tators to compensate for the quicker times. Cost of the truck alone justifies the higher rate and I have no problem explaining this and have had no problems collecting. Steve
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MrsHook.tow411		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10 02/12/12 02:38:01	Remove this ad If it's a laid over truck, it is ppp for us. Same method every time, no way for them to claim I screwed someone by using one method over another with them. And it keeps me out of the truck vs trailer charges debate which is a waste of time. (I so want to tell them, you're right. We didn't charge for the trailer. It looked fine, so we left it in the median.). We don't get hassled about pop. Most look at the photos and the number at the bottom. I had one question about inclement weather. I submitted a memo with documentation and told them I felt the charge was justified, but I would not fight over it. They paid without complaint. I had an on-scene company rep question the equipment we rolled in with. I explained that we needed the personnel, the scene was several miles from our lot, so each man brought equipment to be sure we had what we needed. He asked about charges. I said ppp and there were no more questions. I dunno....but it works for us. Every time. All that being said, there is wiggle room with either method. If I dispatch a truck, I could find a way to use it and charge for it....or discount it out....depending on the situation. Lots being said about special equip charges (spreader bars). They are expensive and not standard, like cushions and some of the other specialty items. And we train for them so their use doesn't cause additional damage. I see both sides of that argument, but I can't knock a guy for getting paid for extra and expensive equip that prevents damage when used properly, but otherwise sits idle. Not meant to bash...just my .02
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Lets talk basic PPP verses Hourly

Lets talk basic PPP verses Hourly